button down collar shirt with suit

Seriously, a button-down collar is a great look, but a casual one, and is simply inappropriate with semi-formal and formal clothes (of which the only one a modern man is likely to wear is the tuxedo). I will encourage the formal BD option. Later, one can learn the exceptions. A thought on why would someone wear an OCBD with a suit. The point of a liberal education should be to study and learn about those things that are most valuable and illuminating in respect of the human condition, irrespective of the skin pigmentation, gender or sexual orientation of the writer, composer, painter, mathematician, etc. Sorry gents, you can wear OCBDS with whatever you want and that is perfectly your prerogative. Oh, yea, button down shirts. I'm not going to mention it because a true gentleman never points it out unless you've got something hanging on your teeth, then you're going to go tell somebody. Re: my personal style, Brown lace up shoes with a blue suit is now somehow untraditional sinful even? Let me just go ahead and explain the rules of button-down collars and then I'll talk about the bigger issue, which is what if you see someone violating the rule. Wouldnt it be nice to be traditional, even just a little bit? They just don't go well together. Did you take a poll of the 1,000,000 Italian men who do this? Those of the Internet high church might ask where the madness ends. I wear it with a sport coat and slacks, or sportcoat and khakis. I am amazed that this thread has elicited so many impassioned comments over collar styles; it seems like a case of sprezzatourettes syndrome. http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-09-19/rethinking-robert-rubin#p6. When next you appear it will be in a plain-point collar shirt. The case was, of course, lost at that moment. I respect the point of view that the button-down is too casual for a suit. Its very similar to how the disappearance of extra fabric at the underarms or around the abdomen means that were being taken over by dandies, but the appearance of a little extra fabric at the ankle is people saying that they dont care how they look. Even Flusser points out that OCBDs have been generally accepted in America since the 1920s. Pair it with a suit, and feel free to pair that suit with loafers. Today such a course is impossible and eighteenth-century women writers are justly prized. This seasons shirt collection includes a button-down tuxedo shirt with ruffles and french cuffs: http://www.brooksbrothers.com/Black-Fleece-Tuxedo-Shirt/FE00031,default,pd.html?dwvar_FE00031_Color=WHIT&contentpos=41&cgid=0714. Regarding the wearing of button-down collars overseas: If Benjamin Franklin could wear a raccoon skin cap to serve as US ambassador to the French Court, we can wear button-down collars even in the presence of Eurobankers. Some Italians do it. Was it worn commonly 30-40 years ago as formal, business wear? Routine client calls, meetings, like the chap above. Once you know them, then you can break thembut only if you can give both the rule and a good reason to break it. Having been lucky enough to be around many leaders of business (as an observer due to my job, not my status), I can tell you that a button down collar is common. Were Hiring Depends completely on the suit and tie. The picture they used at the top was not an OCBD it was nearly see through obviously broadcloth or end on end. As Ive said many times, and as I believe this thread proves, many of you fetishize the OCBD. all of which would be far more acceptable with more casual shirting and none of which would be acceptable in a large percentage of todays white collar, business settings. Did William F. Buckley ever wear anything else? And then when you're wearing a dress shirt by itself well, hopefully you have pants on. I often times wear on ocbd with with a tie and sport coat, if Im wearing an actual suitI avoid the whole problem by wearing a pinned club collar with suits. Non button down collar shirts have been around, esp as formal wear, in this country and many others, for far, far longer than OCBDs. Im not sure any one reads GQ for their style advice these days, however you have a point. Not that hes a style maven, but isnt that the point? With an odd jacket, blazer or sportcoat, especially a casual one, like something linen or tweed. You may want to offer guidance in a very gentle way. Glenn OBrien also suggests (on page 296 of his book How To Be A Man) buying a Star Trek uniform if you get called for jury duty. Sure, as college/Ivy/sportswear styles took off, the style made its way into corporate/formal wear.just like sweatpants and t shirts have made their way into nice restaurants, baseball caps into places of worship, pajamas onto commercial airlines, yoga pants and athletic gear into supermarkets and shops of all kinds, flip flops into cities, and chinos and short sleeved polo shirts into casual Fridays across the land. Cant I keep the plan Im already on? Besides, this is not a secret. Glenn OBrien was the editor of Oui magazine, which was the raunchiest of low-budget porn magazines hardly qualifying for a style maven. Join our free Newsletter and get style advice and new content updates sent straight to your inbox! Ditto re: OCBDs and formal suits. I will say that I dont, anymore, wear a tie with a button down collar, but in the 60s, when I spoke to Thomas Gates about a position at Morgan Bank, he was wearing a button down collar and a gold tie pin. It annoys me when magazines publishes stuff like this. Every single other pic of OCBDs dozens of them has them paired with casual, non formal suiting (and, the one other (formal, wool) suit is pictured with a point collar shirt). Its my sense of humor that draws me here in the first place. If somebody has their jacket unbuttoned, you don't go up to them and button it up because it's one of those things that you respect another man and the way he puts himself together. AEVs statements above sound like the bold pronouncements from the iGents who then post pictures of themselves in tailcoats and strollers at semi-formal events and propound that such is the only appropriate attire. The reality is that the Italians do it in a fashion-forward, almost ironic way.not in a classic, traditional manner. Dammit, I was inconsistent with my spelling of sportcoat. Wrote it as two words the first time, and one word the second time. But, 95% of the time I wear BDs with suits just as formal or not as those few. For example, an Oxford cloth button down shirt with a seersucker suit seems far better than a dressy spread collar shirt that is better worn with a worsted wool suit. Didnt we take the ingredients we wanted from European culture, cuisine and wardrobes and come up with our own way of doing things? I liked Brooks Brothers, but when it came to button-down collar shirts I preferred those made by Gant. Which is it? Finally, it could be considered an element of Trad style that on formal(ish) occasions, one is dressed *slightly* less formally than others; meanwhile, on casual occasions, one is dressed slightly more elegantly than others. What do I mean by casual? sorry to emjkmj for unconsciously repeating his Warren Buffett observation. Let's take it down a notch and as we know, right below a suit comes a blazer with a pair of dark trousers so it's not truly a suit, and that's where about as formal as I would recommend that a man wear a button-down collared shirt with this type of a setup. Example: Rule: No Oxford cloth button down shirts with suits. With an old Hart, Schaffner & Marx hopsack suit which is still in mint conditionmoss green with a muted maroon windowpane. xo f, Has your physician adjusted your medications lately? The traditional core. Because when one needs to wear a tie, one just adds it to the shirt already being worn. We think Bruce Boyer characterized the buttondown best when he wrote in his book Elegance: There are only half a dozen collar styles considered safe for business wear, and the differences are subtle but telling. What an asinine comment. It was clearly labeled dry clean only to avoid losing the lustrous white dye on sensitive Tussah silk. Mikes comment above is priceless. You have a dogmatic tone in presenting your subjective preferences and routinely back them with appeals to tradition, history, custom, rules and sartorial logic, and bang them out on the keyboard like a hammer on an anvil. The button-down collar is at the casual end of the business shirt spectrum and is the jauntiest collar that one can wear in the office or boardroom. Not bad eh? In Canada, they are, in fact, seldom worn with suits. History of Western Civ, Survey of Western Literature, Philosophy, Calculus, the sciences, politics. They were developed for wear during sport thats why Brooks Brothers still calls them the polo collar.. almost all of York Street, contrast color club collar shirts, forward point collar shirts, huge, baggy sweaters, etc. They just are (as are their origins). Would we expect an Englishman visiting the states, to wear flip flops and t-shirts, in an effort to fit in 100% with us yanks? And Im not entirely sure why this is pejorative. Do I wear OCBDs to be aspirational? This rube wears both spread and BD. Carry down collar buttoned is considered a bit clumsy and not smart. I own a few suits a BD would look inappropriate with. Theres a greater range of play at work in the grammar of clothes, isnt there? Ditto on loafers. I am sure that this topic would make an interesting poll. As many of you have pointed out, there was indeed a small window in time perhaps the late 1950s through the 1980s where the sheer preponderance of OCBDs being sold by American retailers and being found under suits made them defacto formal/business wear. The other thing that makes me laugh is when very young guys make pronouncement about tradtion. Regular OCBD fabric looks too casual. The reality is, unfortunately, that Ive found myself on wi-fi enabled cross country business flights the last couple days..giving me plenty of time to acqaint myself with how you spend large chunks of your own. Loafers with suits? I studied the Science of Style in London, Hong Kong, and Bangkok and have created over 5000 videos/ articles to help men dress better. Retailers are fishing for men, and trying to see what bites (or even nibbles) in this current emerging mega digital economy. Really, its just a casual shirt that has no place under a formal suit. That was doing it up right. Agree. Click here to discover more about our mission here at RMRS. Pathetic.. I understand that people like you, Im guessing who like to wear OCBDs with suits and ties will disagree with me. So, when to wear a button down? If its true that liberal arts should teach things that are valuable and illuminating, the problem was that most of what was considered valuable and interesting had been written by a relatively small group of people with similar educations. I think your mistaken. I think for the non-rubes its fairly obvious that Im only using the term formal business suit to differentiate and avoid confusion. You will have answered the question correctly AND let them know you are a free spirit? So there. These will help you find your way back to planet earth: http://jpressonline.com/suits-pressidential/, http://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/forum/showthread.php?107198-Brooks-Brothers-catalogue-scans-1979-1984&p=1377462#post1377462. It is a worthy exploration. Denim worn around the hips is Urban and Wrong. But, when asked, Is a button down a dress shirt? The answer is no. It lends distinction to not so nice necks and elegance to nice necks. I'm not talking novelty ties here. That's a much better way of pointing it out than actually trying to embarrass the guy in front of other people. Mikes comment above is priceless. Im young, and I know. Have some American confidence, man! I would disagree, though, with the implication that the traditional way of doing it was free from pre-judged values. I know its getting stinky in here. For a European eye button down is a sport-country shirt,perfect with wool sweaters,odd sport jackets,or in summer without any jacket. The editors in this shirt guide state that the buttondown is the old-school, all-American look that has never gone out of style and never will.. Usually this is manifested by men in their 20s or early 30s. Whoooo I didnt have time to read all of the comments but the first GQ article was clearly speaking to the OCBD. I thought I would offer comment on the button-down collar question as the first I have made to this site. Wearing an Oxford cloth button down shirt pays homage to the style and more casual look. He was of the opinion that button-down shirts are best worn with blazers and odd jackets. Remember that. By this logic, the button-down is the most formal, as it has the highest button count. Perhaps it's something that you may point out that, Hey, I found this great website and they've got all this good information. OBrien is not a reputable guide for mens dress, nor has GQ been worth a (&@! No sensible American could object to wearing one with a poplin, seersucker, or tweed suit and a tie, and Id extend that to any suit with some roughness in the texture. That doesnt mean it always works, its an acquired taste just like club collars with a pin. (Grumble) Your first mistake was reading GQ. We should all remember that the button down collar shirt, introduced by Brooks Bros. in the late 1890s, was pattered after the shirts of polo players and was exclusively included on sport/casual shirts straight through the 1950s. Go tell it to the ghost of Giovanni Agnelli and JFK. We dont take their advice seriously (hence this post), but we take their circulation and possible influence seriously. My issue is with them making the rather forced jump to formal, business suit attire. I think we can all agree Run of the mill Oxford cloth is not terribly refined with its rough weave. The shirts are made of a totally different material and have a different feel. That aside, I prefer the button-down and a tie with a sport coat or blazer. ), that no debate exists about the appropriateness of OCBDs in formal/business settings (mostly because of personal taste, anecdotal historical cherry picking, and/or an odd fetishization of trad style), is pure foolishness. This critique drew on the perception (or misperception) that men wearing the button-down were obsessed with neatness and didnt want to chance the possibility of the ends of their collars sticking up, which looks oh so very messy indeed. GQ changes its opinions about appropriate dress with almost every volume of the magazine. Case in point, two years ago, you had to have your jeans hemmed an inch above your ankle then last year you had to have your jeans 4 inches long so you can roll them sorry to all the suckers who had to run out and buy all new jeans to keep up with the style. Then the blazer, sport coat, always with OCBDS, never with pointed or spread collared shirts. However, whenever I see a man violating the rules, and I've broken these rules by the way. Yesterday was Remembrance Day in Canada, and I attended services and a reception at an officers mess wearing traditional navy blazer with a regimental crest and buttons, corps tie and medalsall very Anglo-Canadian, but with a classic button-down shirt. A buttondown can be made in either a dress shirt or oxford. Oddly, you inclded old Brooks scans that show every one of their OCBDs paired with blazers and non-matching trousers not a single formal suit and OCBD among any of the pics. Why not a button down with a tux? During the majority of my career, there was only the suit as acceptable clothing at work. If you dont, than you agree with me if you do, than you werent being humorous with your title. We were responding less to the when in Rome (or London) angle than the blanket assertion that a buttondown is not a dress shirt. Generally, I see men who have combined these elements thoughtlessly, perhaps because their wives bought them a dozen shirts one day at Costco and they went from there. I find myself agreeing with Marci. Style is what I wear. AEV- How many exceptions to your fake rule will it take before you admit that you are incapable of separating useful rules from your personal opinions? Button-down is the essence of business, Britain be-damned. I have no prejudice towards the straight collar, I just prefer the button-down, same as my father. To clarify: I never said my stance on OCBDs under a formal/business suit (or any fashion related positions, for that matter) was anything but my opinion; an educated, well-defined opinion based on the origins and traditions associated with the style.but, an opinion not a rule nontheless. My alma maters core included no such innovations. In fact, one couldnt find them amidst the list of electives or major courses. And it is far less of a sartorial sin than wearing a pink shirt or brown shoes with a navy suit. I am, no doubt, weighing in far too late. OCBD is a casual dress shirt that is perfectly fine with a blazer and tie, but never with a suit. To be sure, I am certain about my opinion. Generally, Id discourage it. Wearing a button down oxford/pinpoint shirt as formal business attire is the same as wearing loafers with a formal business suitit screams, Im having trouble growing up.

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